Real Life Mormon Experiences
Most people blindly follow the machine
A friend related the following incredible dream and commentary:
Last night I had an incredibly strange
dream. I dreamt I was on a strange planet, a planet where the inhabitants
were all robots. They all looked human, but they walked around without
thinking. I heard several of them talking to each other about morality..
and the most common sentence was "Oh yes, I believe that."
I was frightened at first, because several statements being made were things
I did not believe. For instance such things as "you must have faith" and
"Only the wise ones know that" were being thrown around and around. I
started noticing these robots were all dressed very similarly.
I saw a long line of people waiting to enter a large building. I casually
asked a person in line what was inside. "Why, the great one of course" was
the reply. I asked what the great one taught and I was looked at with disgust.
I started feeling very alone. as though I were the only one on the entire
planet who could reason. I began to question myself. Could I be Wrong?
Could everyone else around me be wrong? As I watched, every face began to
blur, until I noticed that they were all beginning to look like each other.
I started running. Then I woke up.
I've been trying to place together in my mind what my subconscious was
trying to sort out here. Maybe it was really nothing, but I've come up with
a good interpretation.
For many people, their version of reality is simply what their senses
compute to their brain. If they feel good, they go with it.. If it seems
right, they believe it. It doesn't make any difference to them if it IS
true, but rather if it feels true.
There are people on this earth that are evil. They seek to control men and
their lives. They don't do this by threatening them with physical harm.
Instead, they threaten them with a spiritual harm. My question to myself for
the past two years has been how? How have so many been so easily duped?
How have so many been cheated of their minds? How is it we have forgotten
how to ask questions.
One answer came to me as I was sitting awake in bed shaking with fright at 3
a.m. Most people are both lazy, and afraid. Afraid to take the risk that a
quest for knowledge demands. Afraid of the answers that might be found.
And so they sit home and convince themselves that reality is not real. That
mysticism or their own fanciful thoughts and feelings obtained by turning
"inside" themselves are some kind of absolute reality that cannot be
questioned. And whenever reality does clash with his inward view, it is
reality that must be disregarded.
This clash, however is constant, so of course their feigned reality must be
considered some type of "better" reality. A reality where the things they
maintain as truth, that are in fact false, obtain some kind of elevated
status which only they can understand due to the fact that they are superior
to those of us still living with our heads on earth. And when we point out
the flaws in their reasoning, we are mocked, criticized, and placed in the
hopper of lost souls. Branded as folks without a heart. If we are not
strong, we too will begin to doubt ourselves and become easy targets. We
will begin to think our consciousness is impotent, we will loose our self
esteem, and then we are corralled into believing another man's whim.
So my answer is to preach self worth. That man and his consciousness is
good. That life here upon this earth is worth living, and that we should
not throw it away because someone has told us of a place that is supposedly
better. live life today, enjoy yourself and who you are. Continually
strive to face reality, and NEVER, NEVER stop asking "WHY?"
Parent's daughter emotionally kidnapped from them by the
Mormon church, then turned against them.
(TBM means "True Believing Mormon")
I have heard they won't _BAPTIZE_ a child under 18 without permission. And, our
Nazi-TBM
daughter waited until she was 18 to be baptized against our wishes, although
she was indoctrinated by the mormons when she was only an eight(8) year-old
child, TOTALLY unknown to her parents and EMPHATICALLY without our
permission. She was "fellowshipped" by a mormon family we trusted, and told
that THEY would be her family in eternity.
It sounds like the LDS are more concerned about their IMAGE and sexual
innuendos in situations with missionaries teaching "alone" the "opposite sex
in their age range", than protecting the rights of NON-mormon parents and
the "free agency" of children. The morg has only one objective, and that is
to totally control and absorb your children, their life, their income and
THEIR children for decades to come, and YOU are in the way. YOU and your
"sins" will become your children's testimony.
It happened to us, and we failed to see what was happening in the "church".
By the time we did, our daughter was totally immersed and trapped. They had
literally kidnapped her from us emotionally and intellectually, and we were
the enemy. We were totally alienated, even physically attacked if we
blocked her way. She lived with us, but she was demon-possessed by the
mormons. A teenage Nazi-TBM. We were shut out of her life and became
little more than caretakers. Mormon ADULTS would call and ask for our 10-15
year-old daughter without even identifying themselves, then hang up
if she
wasn't home or we asked their names.
It started with Sunday school and church. It is after all, "only a church,"
right? Then sleepovers, little girl slumber parties, right? And dinners
with the nice missionaries. And the camping trips, the great outdoors
right? Only these trips were spent indoors playing "games" about mormonism.
Who are these men? What right do they have to proselytize to an 8-year-old
child without her parents knowledge or consent?
When we stopped letting her go to church, she went to seminary with the "car
pool". We made her ride the bus, and they picked her up at the bus stop.
We thought we were alone and helpless to challenge a church. How can we
deny her the right to worship Jesus? All of her childhood friends were
mormons. They shunned her at school if she didn't go to seminary with them.
We should have moved away, but we had just bought the house, and home prices
were going up at 20-50% per year. We really had no idea of the lengths the
mormons would go to keep their hooks in our daughter.
Her stories about our "sins" (we drank beer, wine, Coke and coffee) and her
"persecution" were her testimony. She was accepted and revered by the
mormons for her stand against her own parents. We found audio tapes of her
"speeches" at firesides and young women's and Mia-Maids meetings, telling of
the strength of her testimony because of our opposition. She conducted
workshops for converts in standing up to non-mo parents and family. She was
the "poster child" for fellowshipped converts. Her tapes were mailed to
institutes all over the state. Children's voices on the tapes, distraught
and anguished at the pain their conversion was causing their parents. Our
child, coaching them and talking about us as enemy.
We "forced" her to go to a heathen college by refusing to pay for BYU. One
thing about the mormons, they draw the line at putting out money for anyone
else except immediate family. They will fellowship her from us, but still
leave it to us to pay for everything. But she showed us, after being
admitted to the pre-med program at UC Davis on the strength of her top-ten
straight-A high school performance, she flunked out in the first year, while
achieving a "school record" performance in callings and service hours at the
"LDS Institute". Her roommates said she never went to class, and spent all
her time preaching about mormonism.
The day she turned 18, she had her RM college boyfriend baptize her without
our knowledge or permission. She was now "free" but still had us pay for
five more years of college (two degrees) and a teaching credential. She is
married now, to a nice TBM (I actually like him), with a beautiful son and
daughter of her own, a beautiful home, and continually drained from all the
callings. Her two degrees and credential are just wall decorations.
She is a convert, married to a NON-RM in a "ring ceremony" (and the temple a
year later). Now is that a combination for guilt? They constantly feel
unworthy and always fight an uphill battle for respect from his
seven-generation TBM parents. His parents have seen us only once in three
years since the wedding, despite our invitations. They consider us
anti-mormons. They are totally absorbed in the church with multiple
callings, and spend weekends and vacations with his TBM family. All we get
is lip service at birthdays, and holidays.
Oh, she could be a lot worse off. But she would not be, for we raised her
with better standards than the mormons, to think critically and
independently, to make better choices for her life. Someday, it will come
out. I just want to be there to catch her, to help her through the pain. I
failed to act when she was a child of 8, 9 10, 11, and she became trapped in
the cult. We thought it was just a church, we trusted the mormon parents.
That is my guilt, my fathomless pain. I could have saved her, taken a
stand, pulled her away from them, moved away, defied the bishop, threatened
legal action, done SOMETHING to save her. But I failed, and can't turn back
the clock. The time I didn't spend stopping them is now costing me years,
decades of lost love and companionship of my only child, my daughter, as the
morg sucks her deeper and deeper into the pit.
The future is ahead of you, but the clock is ticking. Every golden second
they get, you lose. It is a battle for love and spirit and time ... don't delay.
Church
demands unquestioning obedience
This man documents the long time teaching of just doing what the church leaders say without question.
Every Mormon makes a covenant to "speak no evil of the Lord's anointed"
in
the temple ceremony. The concept originated early in Mormon history. Below
is part of an article I wrote a few months ago. It documents some of the
events surrounding the culture of "unquestioning obedience" and edicts
against criticizing church leaders.
Many Mormons of today deny that a principle of unquestioning obedience to
church leaders exists, or has existed, in LDS culture. The purpose of this
article is to document the teaching, from historical sources.
The first mention of the concept is found in the "revelation" of April 6,
1830, as found in D&C 21:4-5. Speaking of Joseph Smith, "thou shalt give
heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he
receiveth them...For his word ye shall receive, as if from my own mouth..."
By the spring of 1838, about half of Joseph Smith's followers had left his
church in Kirtland, Ohio, primarily over the issue of Smith's failed bank and
their 'United Order' communal system. Smith and Sidney Rigdon escaped from
their angry disciples, and made their way to the only other significant
branch of Mormons, in western Missouri. Hoping to reconstitute their idea of
a communal order among their members, and to try to prevent the same level of
apostasy that had occurred at Kirtland, Smith and Rigdon tightened the screws
on their followers by instituting a policy of unquestioning obedience to
their orders, whether the directives were 'spiritual' or 'temporal'. Some
of their followers, including the Whitmers, WW Phelps, Lyman Johnson, and
Oliver Cowdery, declined to enter the new communal order, preferring instead
to control their own lands and opportunities. David Whitmer wrote of the
period: "In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members
had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them
for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting,
and for my labors I received only persecutions. In June, 1838, a secret
organization was formed, Doctor Avard being put in as the leader of the
band; a certain oath was to be administered to all the brethren to bind
them to support the heads of the church in every thing they should
teach. All who refused to take this oath were considered dissenters from
the church, and certain things were to be done concerning these
dissenters, by Dr. Avard's secret band."
David's brother John, who was the official church historian, confirmed
David's account:
"Joseph Smith, Jr., S. Rigdon and Hyrum Smith moved their families to
this place, Far West, in the spring of 1838. As soon as they came here,
they began to enforce their new organized plan, which caused dissensions
and difficulties, threatenings and even murders. Smith called a council
of the leaders together, in which council he stated that any person who
said a word against the heads of the Church, should be driven over these
prairies as a chased deer by a pack of hounds, having an illusion to the
Gidionites, as they were termed, to justify themselves in their wicked
designs. Thus on the 19th of June, 1838, they preached a sermon called
the salt sermon, in which these Gideonites understood that they should
drive the dissenters, as they termed those who believed not in their
secret bands, in fornication, adultery or midnight machinations."
After Rigdon delivered his "Salt Sermon"---which Smith endorsed---Rigdon
drafted a "Warning Against Dissenters", informing the Whitmers, Phelps,
Johnson, Cowdery, etc., that because of their refusal to obey the 'prophet's'
order to sign over their lands to the commune, "out of the county you shall
go, and no power shall save you....there is but one decree for you, which is
depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you..."
Rigdon had 83 Mormon men sign their names to his "Warning," and those men
formed the original nucleus of the "Danite" band, which was in effect, the
secret church "enforcement squad," whose first act was to drive off the
dissenting Mormons and plunder their belongings. Danites took a secret oath
of loyalty and obedience to their order and to church leaders:
"In the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I now promise and swear, truly,
faithfully, and without reserve, that I will serve the Lord with a perfect
heart and a willing mind, dedicating myself, wholly, and unreservedly, in my
person and effects, to the upbuilding of His kingdom on earth, according to
His revealed will. I furthermore promise and swear that I will regard THE
FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, as the SUPREME HEAD OF THE CHURCH on earth, and OBEY HIM the same as the Supreme
God, IN ALL WRITTEN REVELATIONS given under the solemnities of a 'Thus saith
the Lord,' and that I WILL ALWAYS UPHOLD THE PRESIDENCY, *RIGHT OR WRONG*.
Thus we see the first documented example of the Mormon concept of
unquestioning obedience to leaders put into practice.
When the "Mormon War" in Missouri ended, in October, and Smith, Rigdon, and
others had been arrested for treason, several of their followers testified of
the policy of unquestioning obedience to authority, and the potential
ramifications of refusing:
"We found that the events of a few days had placed Caldwell County under a
despotic government where even liberty of speech was denied to those not
willing to unite in support of the New Order...A friend of long standing said
that if Joseph Smith should tell him to cut my throat he would do it without
hesitation...A few individuals of us were ever after this opposed to the rule
of presidency perceiving that all spiritual and temporal affairs were under
their control and no monarch on earth ever had supreme power over his
subjects more than they do over the inhabitants of Caldwell County...Their
word was law in religious, civil, and military matters.....John Corrill
observed to a person in Far West that he did not 'think it was his duty to
unite with the firm and that he had no confidence in the revelation that
required it'. Joseph Smith and S. Rigdon learning that he had made this
observation, chided him severely for his rebellion in the presence of several
persons. Smith said to him 'if you tell on the streets again that you do not
believe this or that revelation I will walk on your neck, sir', at the time
smiting his fists to evince his great rage. He talked to dissenters and
cited us to the case of Judas, saying that Peter told him in a conversation a
few days ago that he himself hung Judas for betraying Christ. He also said
'if you do not act differently and show yourself approved you shall never be
admitted into the kingdom of heaven." Reed Peck Manuscript, pp. 7-13.)
Thomas Marsh, the president of the Mormon 12 Apostles, also affirmed the
practice of unquestioning obedience in his sworn affidavit: "They have among
them a company of all that are considered true Mormons, called the Danites,
who have taken an oath to support the HEADS OF THE CHURCH in all things that
they say or do, whether right or wrong..."
"Some time in June, I attended two or three Danite meetings; and it was
there, as a part of the duty of the band, that they should support the
presidency in all their designs, RIGHT OR WRONG; that whatever they said was
to be obeyed, and whoever opposed the presidency in what they said, or
desired done, should be expelled from the county, or have their lives taken."
(Testimony of John Cleminson, "Senate Document 189".)
"Jos. Smith, jr., said there were certain men using their influence against
the proceedings of the presidency, and if they were suffered to go on they
would do great injury. And Smith told [George W.] Robinson, the first man he
heard speaking against the presidency, and against their proceedings, he must
tie him up and give him thirty-nine lashes; and if that would not do, give
him thirty-nine more." Testimony of Burr Riggs, "Senate Document 189".)
"Mr. Smith said...any person who spoke or acted against the presidency of the
church, should leave the county or die." (Testimony of John Whitmer, "Senate
Document 189".)
After Smith and Rigdon were arrested, Smith tried to shift responsibility for
the "Danite" band and their actions onto an underling, Sampson Avard. Many
Mormons of today assume that Smith was being truthful in his denial of
responsibility; however, Smith's claim of innocence is refuted not only by
dozens of witnesses, but also by the fact that the Danite band, and the
principle of unquestioning obedience to LDS leaders, were carried over into
Nauvoo and Utah, long after Avard was "cut off" from the church.
This individual observes the similarities between hard-line Communism and Mormonism.
I was up in Utah (the holy land) over Memorial day. A conversation
with a local Never Mo guy got me to thinking. He was kind of chiding
me for criticizing THE CHURCH. He has had a successful career in
business in Utah, mostly based on his reputation for honesty and
reliability. The local Mormons who are his customers appreciate
that. But he says, you can't oppose them and expect to succeed. If
you can't agree with them then you should just shut up about it.
I thought that over for a bit, then I told him, you know, that is
exactly the way things were in the Soviet Union. You didn't have to
be a Communist. But you couldn't oppose the communists, nor
criticize their leaders. As long as there is no dissent voiced it
makes the appearance of propriety and nobody dares question. You can
control a large group of people in this manner even if most of them
do not approve of the course things are taking. Since nobody dares
voice their doubts, everyone assumes they are the only ones with doubts.
History in the Soviet Union as in the Mormon church, was viewed as a
tool to manipulate the masses. Embarrassing episodes were changed or
deleted, as in the denial of the Ukrainian genocide in the 30's, or
the church changing scripture to read "Pure and delightsome" in lieu
of "White and delightsome" to cover up past racism. A lie repeated
often enough becomes the truth, especially if anyone who calls it a
lie is sent to Siberia, or excommunicated. After a generation has
passed there is no longer any memory of the unacceptable truth.
Information media, such as books, movies, or tapes was controlled in
the Soviet Union. You could get in serious trouble for possession of
forbidden western media. You had to limit yourself to media that
would reinforce your faith in Marxism (promote your testimony)
Elections in the Soviet Union were to sustain, not select, their
leaders and were not done by secret ballot, just as in the Mormon
church. Voting against a Communist leader would have been a serious
mistake. LDS sustaining their authorities is very similar.
Decisions in the Soviet Union were made privately by a group of
powerful old men. Nobody knew what was going on behind the closed
doors of the Kremlin. When policy decisions were made there was the
appearance of unanimity. Leaders were held to be above reproach.
Soviet Union - - - Soviet Utah. When the leaders have decided -
the thinking has been done.
(For an explanation of the Mormon doctrine of blood atonement, click here)
A terribly tragic story of what can happen when a Mormon believes too strongly in Mormonism. Written by a grieving widow.
Because I'm sitting here alone with only my computer as an outlet I
hope no
one minds if I just talk and think for awhile
He was born on March 14, 1966.... The second of four boys...
He loved horses, dancing, family and his children....
I met him in Sicily of all places :-)..... I remember how he laughed and how
wonderful it felt to dance with him... It was instant love... He immediately
took to my son and they loved each other.
Later I had twins ... he was thrilled...... he helped when he could and was
never too tired to play with any of them... I remember the safe warm feeling
I would get if I just sat still and listened to all of them playing and laughing.
I remember the look on his face that day in the temple when we were all
sealed and they turned us to look in the mirrors..... our reflections went on
forever ... all of us in white... I had never seen him so content.
At this moment its easy to push the bad memories aside and concentrate on the
good ones...at least for now.
I remember how it felt to be wrapped in his arms ... how it was before the
church got a good hold on him. I remember the phone call that day. the
hopelessness of his voice, the pain that he wouldn't talk about. I remember
him telling me he loved me and the kids, ................ I remember trying
to find out what was wrong........... I remember the noise...... I called he
didn't answer..... I called 911.... I remember hearing the police break down
the door and call for help...... They never hung up the phone ... the line
stayed open..... I couldn't hang up all I could do was listen......listen to
them talk about weapons and medical terms.....I tried to think positive.... I
tried to hear his laugh in my mind to feel his arms around me...... I heard
them say that he was dead....... In my head I heard a crashing sound...... my
life was falling apart..... Could it be true.......
At the funeral home I left the kids outside when I first walked in...... I
remember seeing him laying so still ....... my Rodger so quiet..... he was
never quiet..... no more laughing..... those green eyes that smiled were
sleeping..... the arms that held me were stiff and cold...... The Rodger
laying in that coffin was what was left of the wonderful man I married ...
the happy man the content man..... the Rodger that had killed my Rodger was
the man the church created....the faithful man ..... the devoted man..... but
now it didn't matter ..... my Rodger was lost when their devoted TBM took
over years ago..... and now I would never get him back.
He would have been 34 years old today..... we would have had cake and ice
cream and candles and games.......
Instead we will write messages of love on helium balloons and send them
floating into the air so that he can read how much the children and I love
him and miss him.
There will still be a candle..... I am watching it burning now.....
Oddly enough I am watching four candles burning..... one is for Rodger, one
is for Stuart, one is for Larry, and one is for DJ........
I don't know their birthdays and probably never will..... so for all of those
they left behind that are thinking of their smiles and their laughs I
light
these candles today
As I watch Rodger's candle flicker I
hope that in some way my heart is
speaking to him even if its only to his memory
I think of you often darlin but today is one of those days when you are
almost all I think about..... The children are growing and happy and
loved........ but there are times when I still wish I could feel your hand
caress my cheek ... or that smile you gave me letting me know that
everything is OK. but instead I will just close my eyes and picture you in my
mind ... and smile through the tears streaming down my face.
Happy Birthday Sweetheart........... I Love You. In Memory of Rodger D. Humphries
Born March 14, 1966 --- Died July 18, 1996
Killed by LDS Doctrine of Blood Atonement
Book of Mormon not the only "unique book of scripture"
The following was compiled by a former Mormon who was interested to know the number of religions that have their own "sacred" books.
I have oft wondered about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. How is it
that he could come up with a book of scripture of the which lots of people
have a testimony? Well that got me digging into the various religious canons
that exist on earth. Wow! There are tons of them. Amazing how people just
"know" that each is the truth of their divine being! Should I pray about
each one? Or can I chalk "scripture" up to motivational historical and moral
texts written by humans with only their own thoughts and beliefs to inspire
them?
I bet many of them have inspiring stories with no archaeological evidence
and traditions of angelic visitors revealing the text to their prophets. And
dang it they make me feel fuzzy inside so they must be the full gospel.
Scott
Academic survey of the world's religious scriptures, canons, and core
religious texts.
African Traditional Religions
- many various scriptures
Baha'i Faith
- Writings of The Báb
- Writings of Bahá'u'lláh
- Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá
- Writings of Shoghi Effendi
- Statements of the Universal House of Justice
- Faith Book of Certitude (Kitab-i-Iqan)
- Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah
- Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
Theravada Buddhism
- Tipitaka
- Dhammapada
Mahayana Buddhism
- Sutras (sacred texts) - 2184 sacred writings.
- Lotus Sutra -
- Perfection of Wisdom Sutra
- Land of Bliss Sutra
Vajrayana Buddhism
- Tantric texts and commentaries
- Great Stages of Enlightenment
- Tibetan Book of the Dead
Christian Science
- Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures
- The Holy Bible
Christianity (various denominations listed at end of list * each with their
own "truths")
- The Holy Bible ( 6+ versions )
- Apocrypha (controversial)
- Catholic Catechism
- Writings of the Apostolic Fathers
- Creeds and Canons
Confucianism
- The Analects of Confucius
- The Great Learning
- The Doctrine of the Mean
- The Mencius
- Five Classics: Book of Songs; Book of History; Spring and Autumn
Annals; Book of Ritual
Freemasons (moral fraternity)
- cypher or code books of the Rituals of the various degrees and rites
Hinduism
- The Bhagavad-Gita
- The 4 Vedas (Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, and Upanishads)
- The Tirukural
- Various Puranas
Islam
- The Holy Qur'an
- Sunnah from Hadith
- Nahjul Balagha
Jainism
- Tattvartha Sutra
Judaism
- The Tanakh
- The Talmud
- Various midrashim
- Kabbalah. (controversial)
Korean Religions
- Chun Boo Kyung (among others)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
- The Holy Bible
- The Book of Mormon
- Doctrines and Covenants
- Pearl of Great Price
Mahikari
- "Goseigen, The Holy Words" revelations from God to Kautama Okada.
Maori Traditional Religion
- the Ngaapuhi oral tradition
- The Holy Bible
Native American Religions
- Written and oral traditions of 300+ US tribes
Oomoto Kyo
- Sacred Writings of Oomoto
- Michi-no-Shiori
Scientology
- Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health
- (honored) some of the 5,000 writings and 3,000 tape-recorded lectures
of Dianetics and Scientology by L. Ron Hubbard
Seicho no le
- Nectarean Shower of Holy Doctrines
- Song of the Angel
- Holy Sutra for Spiritual Healing
Sekai Kyusei Kyo and Society of Johrei
- Johrei
Shinto
- Confucian traditions (no proprietary texts)
- Nihon Shoki (possibly)
- Kojiki (possibly)
Shinreikyo
- Divine Teachings of Kyososama
Sikhism
- Sri Guru Granth Sahib
- Adi Granth
Taoism
- The Tao Te Ching
- Chuang-tzu
- Treatise on Response and Retribution (T'ai-Shang Kan-Ying P'ien)
- Tract of the Quiet Way (Yin Chih Wen)
Tenrikyo
- K-oki
- Ofudesaki
- Mikagura-uta
Theosophy
- The Gita
Unification Church
- Divine Principle
- Collections of Sun Myung Moon's sermons
Zoroastrianism
- The Avesta
- Pahlavi texts
- Yasna
- Various other sacred texts
A funny commentary on a logical dead end.
Once a looong time ago when I was a TBM I was at the temple.
They were putting the garments on me for a dead person but said
the garment was to be a protection during life. I thought,
but this person is dead. Do people wear garments when they are
dead? So I thought of Moroni visiting JS and remembered he was
dead and was naked to the waist and so wasn't wearing garments. So
I thought maybe he just hadn't had the work done for him yet
and would wear garments when the work was done because the
Nauvoo temple hadn't been even thought about yet. But then I
thought he was a resurrected being with a celestial glory and I
thought you couldn't be a resurrected being with a celestial
glory unless you had been through the temple. Then I thought
maybe they had temples in ancient America and he went
through the temple before he died even though no one in the
Book of Mormon ever mentions it. But then I thought if he
went through the temple before he died why isn't he wearing
garments? So then I thought maybe people don't wear garments
when they are dead. Then I thought, Why am I here having
them put these garments on me for a dead person? Any answers?
Correspondence with an investigator
A young man who was planning to be baptized a Mormon came across my web page and wrote me. What followed was an interesting exchange of ideas. Since our exchange, he was indeed baptized and reports that he is extremely happy and still has a testimony of the Mormon church.
His first letter:
I am becoming Mormon this June. I have waited a whole year and been attacked
by almost every form of Christianity in one way or another with exceptions to
some, but my testimony has stood strong. I know you think you can find the
mysteries of the church or even of God in history but you cannot. Only by the
spirit and nothing else can one know the true nature of God. I know the
church is true and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Not because I
have found everything pleasing to my knowledge or understanding but because
God told me so threw the spirit of the Holy Ghost. Having not been Mormon
ever before and still waiting to become a Latter-day Saint I can see the
difference. I know the church is true. When you come into the ways of the
Lord there is a difference than in the ways of man. You know without a doubt
with all life being proof of it as well as every feeling that the church is
true. I cannot explain the things you have found but the peace in my heart
tells me I don't have to, even in the name of Jesus Christ Amen. I love you
always brother, pray about it for real.
My first response:
Hi, Thanks for writing. I always enjoy getting responses from my page.
Congratulations on your upcoming baptism! I'm always happy to see people making
decisions for their own lives and following through with those decisions. My
entire family is Mormon, and if you read my story, you know that I believed the
claims of the church for many years. The church can be a real unifying force if
all members of a family are involved. In spite of all my "hand
wringing" at what I see as dishonesty from the Mormon church, I have
recently come to the conclusion that many people are not as concerned with the
details as am I. This includes most members of my family. Many if not most
members base their belief on feelings and emotions. The comfort that membership
affords them is what keeps them in. This is natural for them, and they will most
likely continue in the church even if presented with well documented facts
showing major problems with it. My web page is not designed for those people. I
am hoping to help those like myself who have learned to apply critical reasoning
skills and appreciate the value of the scientific method in evaluating claims
made by men. In the past, ready sources of documented information concerning the
history of the church were limited and hard to find. The internet has changed
this significantly. The church has always had the loudest voice in projecting to
the world it's history. My interest is in providing members and non-members
alike those parts of Mormonism that are not discussed in Sunday School. For me,
the most important thing in this world is honesty. I am trying to do my small
part to bring the full story of Mormonism to the people. People are ALWAYS
better off when they are better informed. If the things on my page sway some
from Mormonism, so be it. If the things on my page somehow serve to increase
someone's "testimony", so be it. The important thing is that they go
away better informed and better able to approach questions regarding the church
in their own lives. I'm glad to be able to share this information with you. I
think potential converts to the church should have as much information available
to them as possible in order to make a best decision for themselves. Good luck
in your experience in Mormonism. Please remember to always support others in the
decisions they make for their own lives, just as I support your decision to
enter Mormonism. Take Care, Kelly
His second letter:
From my understanding of the Journals of discord is that they were kept and
recorded by others then the people they talk about, thus making it easy to
change or add whatever the dictores wished or anyone else. Many people
throughout history tried to fool people in the church such as with the
Kenderhook plates and other tactics. If you are no longer Mormon it would be
interesting to know what religion you have become if any. I used to be Roman
Catholic the only other possible true church in Christianity. I would never
be catholic again and if you are interested in history there's would be an
interesting one to study. Filled with massacres other wise known as
"crusades" and before the act of poverty was taken by the priests
there's was
a rain of a tyrant. If what you say is true and I choose to believe it then I
would know that there was Never a God at all. The only reason why I have
decided to become Mormon is because I have taken God up on his promises to
ask and receive. Not to mention what type of God would let someone so willing
to serve him be deceived when they came to him for help. How perfect would
that be? I have gotten an answer of that I am sure, weather it was my own
feelings or the Holy Ghost I have no proof. All I know is that I have gotten
a feeling I have found no where else and never had experienced before in my
life. I am the only one in my family becoming a latter day saint. It is not
easy at all. I am 17 years old thus I must have parents consent before
becoming a member. It is not the feelings I get of being together forever
with my family that keeps me going, for none are interested. It is not a girl
friend or even a friend that keeps me in the church. While I do have friends
in the church their friendship is not worth the stuff I have gone threw to
stay a member. If the church is not true then what could be? sincerely yours
(name removed)
My reply:
Hi (name removed), Yes, the Mormon church has many answers that other churches
do not address. I admire their progressive positions on many doctrinal points.
They were very science friendly in the 1800's, trying to make religion and
science meld as one. My thesis called "Space Mormons" deals with a lot
of this. A friend of mine who is a scientist and a former Mormon told me he
almost felt like re-joining the church after reading that! :). My main
concern about the church is that it teaches people to close their minds. I have
several friends and family who WILL NOT consider or even listen to the
interesting parts of Mormon history such as I have written about. They have been
conditioned to consider anything not pro-Mormon to be sinful. It is frustrating,
because these things are documented history, sanctioned by the church. For
example, the Journal of Discourses is the Mormon church's written record of
public discourse given by early leaders. They were held in the highest regard by
the general membership until the modern day when so many of the things contained
within are potentially embarrasing to the church. Now they are rarely discussed,
except for an occasional reference in a lesson manual to quote Brigham Young or
others. Yes, you are right that the Catholic church has been responsible for
many hienous acts against humanity. Most every movement that wields power will
at times abuse it. That is why I am such a strong advocate of individualism and
the democratic form of government. The Mormon church is not immune to these
abuses. Note the Mountain Meadows Massacre for example. There are other examples
of physical harm done by Mormons under the influence of "God". But I
think that in these modern days, the biggest concern is the Mormons insistence
on complete control of the individual. If you think about it, the church
dictates how you talk, what you put in your mouth, what underwear you wear, who
you associate with, and what sort of books/movies/TV you spend your time with.
The church is very attractive (name removed). Especially since they have become
so rich and spend so much money on polishing their image in the media. There are
a lot of very good people in it. My entire family are great people. And the
church is an influence for good in their lives. But the church is not the one
and only standard of all that is good and right in the world. I choose to
reserve my individualism. I am a very moral person. The church and my family
taught me the importance of honesty. Ironically, I took it completely to heart
and consider honesty the most important virtue. That is why I am incensed by the
church's slick spin control of it's own history. I want people to have the
honest truth available to them. You are continuing your investigation of the
church (name removed). That is a GOOD thing. Knowledge is ALWAYS a good thing.
Continue to find out as much as you can. One interesting note that is very
telling to me: Many "controversial" Mormon web sites list links to
pro-Mormon sites, but very few if any pro-Mormon sites link to the controversial
material. Why would anyone want to keep information from anyone else? A link
that I have found to be very interesting is www.exmormon.org There are many
resources there from others like me, including lots of personal stories of
peoples experiences in the church. Some are bitter and angry, but others are
just disappointed to find inconsistencies with the church. There is also a email
list for people talking about Mormonism. Check it out (name removed). One last
thing. You might find it surprising that I don't consider myself
"anti-Mormon". I was born and raised in the church and have many fond
memories of my time in it. I consider myself "ethnic-Mormon" and
continue to follow the churches progress and evolution. I don't pretend to know
the mysteries of the universe anymore. I am just happy to be alive and to
experience new things everyday. Take Care for now, Kelly
His third letter:
I went to the Library today as I am sure you would approve of and looked at
the encyclopedia of Mormonism. I highly recommend you check it out. One thing
I found interesting was about the deseret alphabet. The church was just
trying to teach people how to read. What's so scary about that? I looked up
the Journals of discord and found out that they are by no means church
doctrine and you know prophets are people too and not perfect. The only thing
that has to do with perfection and a prophet is when they are speaking for
God. Can I find the journals of discord for myself somewhere? And if the
church uses quotas from them sometimes would they be in a church book store?
I can't imagine such a church that would still use quotes from such a harmful
thing to their religion to support the doctrines. All I learned today about
the Journals is that they are not doctrine and where written in England for
the people who could not get the deseret news. I find that you feel the sins
of B. Young and J. Smith noted in those journals bother you. I must say we
know Joseph Smith sinned it's even record in the D&C when the Lord tells him
he should have been more faithful. Now I have never read the Journals so I
don't know everything that it contains about these men but what you claim. I
am not calling you a liar in fact I do most likely believe you that those
things on your web page are in there, but to as how true they were when
recorded or to what extent they have been embellished or even if out of
context I do not know. I did ask you previously what religion you are now a
member of and it seems to me that you are an individualist. I am not clear on
what that means as far as having a belief in God or anything. You asked me if
I think one looses ones self in the way the church controls what I see and
drink. I once had a girl tell me I lost my individualism because I try to be
like Christ or Christlike and not myself. I will say the same to you as I
wished I would have said to her. Is there anything wrong with trying to be a
better person? Having not been a member and seen and taken in all these
things into my mind and body I do find that I am well pleased in restraining
from them. I have experienced that the restrictions of the church is right in
these matters and that it does promote away to be more like Christ. As far as
the website I have been there before. I go to many anti or even just lightly
opposed sites of ex-members and do so because I have had a talent in seeing,
and please don't think me arrogant, the mistakes they have made and what lead
them to there leaving the church. I would be so bold to say that yours was,
and now I know you think me arrogant, when you quit going to church. As I am
sue you have been told one log out of the fire easily burns out, now weather
you think you've burnt out or found yourself is in your perception. All I
know is that I have had doubts about the church and even God, but I knew that
if I hung in there I would come to see the truth. I have always gotten an
answer, as I like to believe from Heavenly Father, to what bothers me or
raises concern and your points are slowly becoming the same. Sincerely (name
removed)
My response:
Hi (name removed), Sorry I've been late to respond. I've been very busy lately.
I find nothing scary about the Deseret alphabet. But I DO find it highly
interesting. It is something I never heard about growing up in the church. My
page is primarily made up of those things that I find interesting about the
church, and things I don't remember being taught in Sunday School, or Priesthood
meeting. You keep calling the Journal of Discourses the "Journal of
Discord". How does one know when a prophet is speaking for God? Is it only
when the speech is followed by "thus sayeth the Lord"? And if that is
the case, I have NEVER heard Gordon B. Hinkley say "thus sayeth the
Lord" after any of his instructions to the membership. So does that mean
that the membership cannot be sure that he is talking as a man or as a prophet?
How does one differentiate? Yes, you can find the Journal of Discourses. The
full set of books would be expensive. There are 26 volumes. A friend bought a
set 3 years ago at Deseret Book and it cost him nearly $400. But there is a much
more affordable way to own a copy. It is included on the Gospel-Link CD ROM,
which is available for around $39 I believe. You can pick it up at Deseret Book,
Seagull Book and Tape, etc. As far as a religion, I haven't aligned with any
religion. I find them mostly to be guides for people who need that sort of
thing. The rules regarding smoking, drinking, etc are a good guide. But I am an
intelligent grownup. I can decide for myself concerning these issues. I know
that smoking is harmful, and excessive drinking is harmful. I choose to avoid
these things in the interest of personal health, not because I am told that I
will lose blessings and be a pariah in my community if I use them. You appear to
be one that wants a ready answer to life's questions, and wants someone to tell
you what God wants. I wish you well. Many Mormons are happy living that life.
Like I said earlier, I am not interested in dragging anyone out of the church
who finds it emotionally satisfying. My interest is in making information
available to those like myself that would have appreciated hearing all sides of
the story from my church leaders, rather than just the side that is most
flattering to the church. Take Care, Kelly
His forth letter:
I am sorry about the discord thing. I don't know when you write me but its
12:50 am when I write you or it was around that time that I mindlessly
substituted the word discord for discourse. Anyway I was wondering how you
can be sure all the historical things on your site are true? I mean just
because something's old and documented doesn't make it true all the time
right? Well, I must admit that the journals of DISCOURSE do bother me a bit
but I am not sure if it's worth something leaving the church on. I know I
really do have a testimony of the gospel but to say that its from myself and
not God feels wrong. I personally do love what the church teaches today and
do believe it can make me happy but I wouldn't want to do as much as I am
because of my new found religion if it were not 100% true. I only have my
testimony and that fact that I would even say I know it's from God to
reassure me of it. But the things on your web page about the church prophets
of old do not make me happy. If they really did treat their wives like that
and make up phony doctrine then that really makes me feel bad that I could be
in a church that I know is so true and have it be built on power hungry men.
It is just so amazing to me how real my testimony is that I know the church
is true. It makes me feel bad inside to even speculate that it's not. I mean
I have thought about it, getting out, that is but how could I ever turn my
back on something I really believe is from God? Should it bother me that I
would say to you that I know the church is true no matter what's on your
website or does that mean I just have strong faith?
Followed by his fifth letter:
Ya know what I could careless what those journals say. I know that has
nothing to do with having a testimony of the gospel. I have prayed about it
and felt amazing joy that I have never felt before in my life. I know the LDS
church is the only true church and that the Book Of Mormon is true. I don't
care about those journals. What is any answer going to matter? The truth is
the truth and that is just the way it is. Even if they contain all the things
I have read about on your web site that in no way should have an effect on my
testimony! And if it does then I am not doing something right in my life. I
really like talking to you and I think your a nice person. I know you must
think I am young and will find out sooner or later what you think you have.
You must be thinking it is sad that I could be so deluded and in denial that
I can't admit when I am wrong and move on. Well, I am not wrong about the
church or the book of Mormon even if every last sentence on your site was
said and the actions did happen. I cannot tell you why those things were like
that if they were. How prophets could be so different from what we think a
true prophet should be. All I can say is that I believe in God and believe in
the answer I have gotten threw prayers. I must follow threw on that because I
know it is true. Even if the truth of it seems so impossible because of all
you have learned about church history, true or not. I know the church is
true; and if I am a fool I would play the fool forever because I love God and
have gotten no other answer. Thanks for hearing me out even though I may
sound manic depressive. :) May God bless you always. (name removed)
My response:
Hi again (name removed), I just got back from shooting guns in the west desert.
I have a bit of a sore throat and a headache, but I wanted to write in response
to your last, before I go to bed. I'm sure you're aware that there are a lot of
charismatic religions in the world. They all attract and retain members by
making people "feel" a certain way. Some religions are very physically
active, like the faith healers and the holy rollers. Mormonism is very low key
physically, but still relies on creating a "feeling" that is good, and
then telling you that that "feeling" is the "Holy Ghost".
The Mormon church is very good at it. They have lots of money to create a very
slick image that draws out the natural emotions from people. I was touched
several times by church media productions. Many times those things brought a
tear to my eye. But I realized that the church isn't the ultimate source of
goodness. Goodness comes from the heart, and can be manifest by people of all
cultures, religions, etc. Like I've said before, there are a majority of great
people in the church. You may be numbered among them soon. Their friendliness
and acceptance is very attractive. Everyone likes to be liked. But their
goodness is not a product of the church. I would venture to say, that most of
those people were raised as good people and would be that way whatever church
they belonged to, or even if they chose not to belong to any church. My point
again is individualism. We live in a community of fellow human beings. If you
think about it, it is obvious that basic rules such as DO NOT KILL, DO NOT
STEAL, etc. are universally advantageous for the community as a whole. I am a
moral person because I want to be a net asset to my community. I will be more
successful in a community of order than I would be in a community of chaos. It
doesn't take an authority figure, religious or otherwise, to tell me what to do,
and when and how to do it. May I tell you (name removed) that you are the
exception to the rule when it comes to investigating these things for yourself.
I find it gratifying that you are seriously looking at all sides of the issue.
It's so frustrating for me to have this information available, yet not be able
to share it with my own family and some friends. They would be very offended, or
call it lies. There is a very real chance that bringing these things to their
attention would cause great division between us. That's probably why I am most
angry about the effect of the Mormom church. I can have a more open and honest
conversation with you (name removed), someone I don't even know, than I can with
my own blood relatives, parents and siblings. A third party (the church) has in
effect put a wall between me and my family that I don't know how to remove. I
love them all very much, and we get along great, but I can't freely bring up
interesting but non-faith promoting aspects of the church. Maybe as a convert,
you will not have those constraints. Going in as you are, with a knowledge of
the good, the bad, and the ugly about the church, you will be more likely to
make a small difference in the church. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if the
"secrets" were know to all Mormons, they wouldn't be secrets anymore.
That would be a good thing. Any community is more vibrant and healthy in an open
and honest environment. I like to establish bonds, not chasms. I like to see
myself as one to provide historical information that may not be readily
available to many members and potential members of the church. You will always
be a better man knowing as much about your world as possible. Never forget that.
If ANYONE starts telling you what you should and shouldn't read, look at, study,
etc., be very suspect of them. They are trying to control you. I have only
encouraged you to gather as much information as you possibly can. My only agenda
is that (name removed) makes the best possible decision for (name removed).
Others may try to limit your access to only "faith promoting"
material. They may have another agenda. No, you don't sound
"manic-depressive". You are obviously a very sincere individual who is
going through a highly emotional stage of your life. I wish you lots of luck.
And do keep in touch! Kelly